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Post by stannis on Aug 12, 2014 18:17:17 GMT
Came across this a while back and was reminded of it. Dates Shoot the Runner to at least March 2005, interestingly enough. So I presume Karloff was at least aware of it and didn't contribute anything, judging from the Empire liner notes.
I like the staccato rhythm!
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Post by highroyds on Aug 12, 2014 20:21:47 GMT
I think there was something in Sound, Movement & Empire about Serge writing songs for the next album while they were still touring the debut, and they were kind of disagreeing on what direction to pursue, because Serge wanted to move on. But most people probably don't realise how little Karloff contributed to begin with in terms of writing.
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Post by stannis on Aug 12, 2014 21:53:44 GMT
I think there was something in Sound, Movement & Empire about Serge writing songs for the next album while they were still touring the debut, and they were kind of disagreeing on what direction to pursue, because Serge wanted to move on. But most people probably don't realise how little Karloff contributed to begin with in terms of writing. What's the consensus on Karloff's contributions? Enough to have a co-write for the entire debut and four Empire era tracks at least, so we're talking lyrics and/or music. I always presumed he was heavily involved in the arrangements, considering how well he was showcased by a lot of the song structures. Can you shed any more light on it? |
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Post by highroyds on Aug 12, 2014 23:57:44 GMT
What's the consensus on Karloff's contributions? Enough to have a co-write for the entire debut and four Empire era tracks at least, so we're talking lyrics and/or music. I always presumed he was heavily involved in the arrangements, considering how well he was showcased by a lot of the song structures. Can you shed any more light on it? He's only credited for music on both albums, lyrics are all Serge's. They've said repeatedly in interviews that Serge wrote the songs and Karloff "helped", whatever that involved. I can dig up some quotes, I think at one point Tom said something like Karloff only "added atmosphere", and most recently in the Let's Roll documentary Serge said he wouldn't still be playing the songs if they weren't his, but I do have it on good authority that Serge alone was responsible for most of it. I always thought they might have been going for a Lennon/McCartney kind of thing with the joint credit for everything, but that's just my personal theory. |
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Post by stannis on Aug 13, 2014 1:13:34 GMT
What's the consensus on Karloff's contributions? Enough to have a co-write for the entire debut and four Empire era tracks at least, so we're talking lyrics and/or music. I always presumed he was heavily involved in the arrangements, considering how well he was showcased by a lot of the song structures. Can you shed any more light on it? He's only credited for music on both albums, lyrics are all Serge's. They've said repeatedly in interviews that Serge wrote the songs and Karloff "helped", whatever that involved. I can dig up some quotes, I think at one point Tom said something like Karloff only "added atmosphere", and most recently in the Let's Roll documentary Serge said he wouldn't still be playing the songs if they weren't his, but I do have it on good authority that Serge alone was responsible for most of it. I always thought they might have been going for a Lennon/McCartney kind of thing with the joint credit for everything, but that's just my personal theory. I suppose it boils down to who you believe. A lot of bands have had court arguments over what constitutes a co-write credit. It could be that Karloff developed basic chord structures to the extent that it needed reflected in the credits. Then you get into the business of hooks, riffs. It's very subjective obviously. What makes a song a song and all the rest of it. "Only added atmosphere" sounds like it's understating his efforts, in my opinion. Atmosphere was a huge part of what got them over the hurdle of Oasis comparisons in the early days. Implies that Karloff had an initial producer type role on the early sketches of songs too. It's a fascinating time in the band's history. The only occasion the boat rocked, as it were. I can understand why Karloff keeps quiet on his end. He'd only have to open his mouth and it would be so easy to be painted as the bitter ex-member. I remember the feeling on the official forum when Jay appeared out of nowhere and it was radio silence regarding what had happened. Was really poorly handled, and it ended up taking the piss out of the fans for a while, the lack of clarification. All they needed was a note on the website in early 2006 and there you go. No need for the Empire era to have such a confusing start. I'm sure there was a gig somewhere with fans bringing a "Where's Chris?" banner. Obviously, it's worked out fine in the end, and then some, but it's fun to reminisce. |
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Post by highroyds on Aug 13, 2014 12:29:53 GMT
"Only added atmosphere" sounds like it's understating his efforts, in my opinion. Atmosphere was a huge part of what got them over the hurdle of Oasis comparisons in the early days. Implies that Karloff had an initial producer type role on the early sketches of songs too. I thought they might have tried to downplay it a bit in the press right after it happened, when people questioned Serge's ability to write an album on his own, especially Tom got defensive. But now, and off the record as well, they don't owe an explanation to anyone anymore. I remember the feeling on the official forum when Jay appeared out of nowhere and it was radio silence regarding what had happened. Was really poorly handled, and it ended up taking the piss out of the fans for a while, the lack of clarification. All they needed was a note on the website in early 2006 and there you go. No need for the Empire era to have such a confusing start. I'm sure there was a gig somewhere with fans bringing a "Where's Chris?" banner. That was rubbish. That's why it should not have been a surprise that nobody cared enough to say anything when Jay left, because it happened before exactly like that. I guess if me and cuttoff hadn't randomly found out who Tim was three days before he played his first gig with the band we still wouldn't know any real details. He never got a proper introduction. But anyway, back to Shoot the Runner. It's one of those songs that I always think I'm bored of and I wouldn't mind if they dropped it, but then I hear it again and it's such a great song, better than ever this year, I love it with the intro. I would probably love it even more if they dropped it for a little bit, because that always happens. For example Processed Beats was never one of my favourites, but then they stopped playing it and now when it comes back occasionally I enjoy it SO much. |
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Post by stannis on Aug 13, 2014 15:16:41 GMT
I'm all up for some setlist rotation! I remember a sheet given out to the staff at a venue once that had an A-E letter assigned to each song, so the crew would know when things would be a little mental. I wonder if they use a similar formula for their setlists.
It would explain things like Black Whistler or British Legion for Thick as Thieves. bow for Take Aim and the like. Imagine a bumblebeee/Reason is Treason 1-2 instead of Shoot!
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Post by jayfreeman on Aug 13, 2014 19:20:47 GMT
One more thing about Karloff. I heard a joke from someone who said that Karloff was never a real person, but just Noel Fielding in disguise;)
I even started to believe in this theory, but then Black Onassis came out...
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Post by bumblejaybee on Nov 10, 2014 23:03:41 GMT
This was the first song I ever danced to on my first date with the woman who is now my wife.
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Post by cuttoff on Nov 10, 2014 23:28:45 GMT
This was the first song I ever danced to on my first date with the woman who is now my wife. That's lovely! Funnily enough, Shoot The Runner was the soundtrack to my divorce. |
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Post by bumblejaybee on Nov 10, 2014 23:30:06 GMT
This was the first song I ever danced to on my first date with the woman who is now my wife. That's lovely! Funnily enough, Shoot The Runner was the soundtrack to my divorce. It's a great memory of the song. It makes me enjoy the song even more. I hope he wasn't a runner and you shot him. |
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Post by cuttoff on Nov 10, 2014 23:33:09 GMT
That's lovely! Funnily enough, Shoot The Runner was the soundtrack to my divorce. It's a great memory of the song. It makes me enjoy the song even more. I hope he wasn't a runner and you shot him. Haha I should have. |
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Post by bumblejaybee on Nov 13, 2014 20:16:18 GMT
I should add that it also has one of my favourite videos.
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Post by cuttoff on Jun 5, 2015 18:30:19 GMT
Love this one from HRC
I wish they'd play it with the long outro though like they used to, it was so gorgeous.
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